Curse

reaper with no name · Dec 11, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

And its been over a year and ANet can't figure out how to fix the only cheat skill eh? Right...

You mean abused like 600/Smite and OB Flesh builds in high end PvE? Oh ok.

Funnily enough, Elite areas in NM don't accept Sins unless they're perma, so your asserion is incorrect.

Who knows what their motivations are? But you're right, why intentionally gimp yourself in a game that is designed to funnel players into the most efficient builds?

Shadowform is their skill, Spellbreaker is the monks, Obsidian Flesh in the Ele's and so on and so forth. Each class has methods for maintaining some form of tanking ability, even warriors have Gladiator's Stance. Obviously there are varying levels of efficacy, but that's to be expected in any game with hundreds of skills to choose from.

Guild Wars PvE is not about skill, its about time, as is evidenced by the amount of grind and title farming. And its not hard to beat the campaigns, so you need to define what "winning" is. I'm assuming you mean accumulation of wealth, and any player can do so, just go roll a Sin!

Until you realize what hypocrisy is, and that I've not advocated any of the things you've claimed, your statements are irrelevant and supercilious.

Anet knows what needs to be done. They've been dragging their feet because they're afraid of the QQ.

600/Smite and OF are not invincibility. SF is. Big difference there. Using anything except SF is the same as putting mending on your bar. The methods of tanking other classes have? Useless. There's no reason to use anything other than SF, any more than there is to use mending. All are equally useless in the face of SF.

All I did was take your arguments to their logical end:

If invincibility is ok, then why is it not okay for all professions? Why do assassins get special treatment?

If all people are entitled to win simply because they bought the game, then why shouldn't they have an insta-win button?

Keep trying to dance around this. It amuses me.

Golgotha · Dec 11, 2009, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

You mean 99% of SF sins.

Also, has it ever occured to you that maybe, just maybe, one of the reasons these areas are so empty is because only SF sins are wanted for them?

And aren't the areas already empty except for farmers? Nerfing SF won't do anything except make the farmers move on. It won't change your ability to find a group to actually play the area.

But yes, the ideal solution would be a nerf to SF with changes to the areas accompanying it.

If they were going to go as far as to alter the areas then what's the point of nerfing SF? I'm certain the changes would be to combat the current metas, of which SF is one of them, thus ending its current efficiency, would it not?

FyrFytr998 · Dec 11, 2009, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I would counter that with "every argument for keeping it is another way of saying 'I want to keep farming ectos easily and get this stuff easily'!".

Umm...yeah. Thought that one was kinda obvious for most PRO SF people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

It hurts my enjoyment of the game because I like there to be some semblance of balance. And I like being able to play a character without constantly having to face the fact that no matter how well I optimize their build and equipment, there will never be any purpose in it, since SF will always be superior.

True, but you have the ability to play or not to play a Permasin. Just as you have the ability to group with whomever you choose in game. I have a Permasin, but I still choose to play my Warrior. Think of all the ecto I'm missing out on for the sake of "fun". I just make sure to play with like minded individuals or H/H. And contrary to my non"Hardcore" status. I'm pretty successful in game. To this date, I have yet to see how Permasins have negatively impacted me and my fun in game. Yet people keep making the argument that they are hurting my GW experience somehow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Also, let's not forget, your argument of "If you don't like it, don't use it" is equally valid when arguing that alien cyborg kungfu zombie nuns should be a playable class. Some players might enjoy it, I guess Anet should implement it, right? Those who don't like it don't have to use it.

While we're at it, let's give players access to BAMPH! If players don't like it, they don't have to use it, right? And let's give them machine guns, too! And tactical nuclear missiles that are mounted on satelites! And a shout called "RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO You!" that gives all the monsters -2000 armor! And a dildo sword skin! And a skill that lets you fart pink elephants that stomp on all the enemies for 300 chaos damage!

I hope someone from ANET is reading this. You have talent!!

R&D could use a guy like you. And one of your wishes is coming true. I saw guns being used in the new GW2 trailer!!

mrvrod · Dec 11, 2009, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

So by this logic, ANet should make Luxon/Kurzick Defenders available as henchmen?

Because f it, how does that ruin anyone's game? If you don't like it, don't use it.

Edit:
As for needing SF to clear UW...I've done it with a friend in HM with heroes...it isn't that hard.

And you sidestep, rather than answer, the question. Because there is NO valid reason. You must deflect from the question, rather than answer, becaue the way one person plays PvE in NO WAY affects your enjoyment of how you play PvE. Thanks for proving my point.

Golgotha · Dec 11, 2009, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If invincibility is ok, then why is it not okay for all professions? Why do assassins get special treatment?

1. Labeling it as invincibility is a last ditch, desperate argument.
2. So if every profession were to be able to maintain it, it wouldn't be an issue in your eyes?

Gill Halendt · Dec 11, 2009, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by My Inner Ninja

So this "me too" that you speak of suggests otherwise, that these pleasures are only reserved for a select few and the others ought to know their place.

Bolded for you. Don't say you don't envy something, just to call it a "pleasure" soon after. So that's about it. You're basically saying: "Elitists exist! I'm not like them! Shadow Form is an equalizer: I can be as nasty as an elitist, so it's fine."

You don't need a single minute of farm in GW to play effectively. You can do it if you like, but if you find bling and flashing items attractive, that has probably more to do with their perceived image amongst the playerbase. You don't need an Obsidian Edge to play. I hardly believe anyone would ever craft Obsidian Armor or Chaos Gloves if they weren't so expensive. It's just show-off. You want the show-off without even the effort. As I said, go for it. I don't care. I don't like elitism as well, yet I don't go after it.

The simple fact some content IS in the game DOESN'T mean you MUST be able to access it whatever the case. No "hardcore area" is mandatory in the game, no hi-end weapon is, this kind of content was designed with a simple equation in mind: bigger effort = higher reward.

You're basically taking the "bigger effort" part down. Fine with me: no effort = no value to me, so you can get multiple Obsidian Armors for your shortcut elitism, that will just make you an elitist-wannabe yourself. Final word to the developers, who mantain the game and have the right to decide if that's they way they want it to be played.

Golgotha · Dec 11, 2009, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Final word to the developers, who mantain the game and have the right to decide if that's they way they want it to be played.

Funny, because no one said anything along these lines before they announced the balancing update. All that was talked about was how Anet is killing their own game, don't know what they're doing and are pandering to "lazy farmers". I doubt you'd really feel this way if they came out and concluded that Shadow Form was not an issue and would not be altered. It's a statement only ever used when things are looking in your favor.

Life Bringing · Dec 11, 2009, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

And a dildo sword skin!

Ahem...

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

To be honest, I'm surprised any high-end teams let anything except SF sins in, because there's really no reason to ever play a warrior or whatever when you could just be a SF sin.

Have you ever done DoA before? Gl doing the majority of it with 8 permas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Also, has it ever occured to you that maybe, just maybe, one of the reasons these areas are so empty is because only SF sins are wanted for them?

Has it occurred to you that you aren't always right? There's a reason that people dont form for most of the missions in the game, and it's not because everyone wants a shadowform sin. The real reason is that pugs are, quite franky, absolutely terrible. There is zero advantage whatsoever in pugging a mission over doing it with heroes, or, if it's difficult, getting a friend to lend you their heroes as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

If invincibility is ok, then why is it not okay for all professions? Why do assassins get special treatment?

Shadowform is available to all professions. In fact, all professions can maintain it. This principle applies to ALL skills and professions. Of course running a particular role is possible on all professions, but one will always excel at it. Even in the current state of the game, Eles actually run perma SF better than sins do.

Lastly, the arguing shouldnt be done over Shadow Form. The Shadow Form nerf has been announced. It is guaranteed. Arguing back and forth on whether or not it should be nerfed is pointless. The nerf you guys should all be fighting for is Obsidian Flesh. Once Shadow Form is gone, nothing, and i mean NOTHING, will change if Obsidian Flesh is not nerfed. In fact, terra roles using OF(with candy), are possibly faster than shadow form, simply because of the lack of the damage reduction.

FyrFytr998 · Dec 11, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

You're basically taking the "bigger effort" part down. Fine with me: no effort = no value to me, so you can get multiple Obsidian Armors for your shortcut elitism, that will just make you an elitist-wannabe yourself. Final word to the developers, who mantain the game and have the right to decide if that's they way they want it to be played.

But that is the gist of most anti-SF people. These "bigger effort" elitists are maintaining that the "short cut" wannabes have personally affected them by invalidating their achievements in a virtual world. I was unaware there was such a level of butt hurtness. That was until Permasins came about.

Two players are standing next to each other in FoW armor. One did it the old fashioned way. The other did it a gimmicky way. Now on principle, you can say the old fashioned way deserves more merit for it. Ultimately though, if the old fashioned player is losing sleep over the fact that the gimmick player had FoW armor too. Well "old" boy better reevaluate his current position in life.

Seriously, all the QQer's who are pro nerf are like "Old Money" millionaires who are mad because a new money "Powerball" lotto winner was let into their exclusive country club.

Kaleban · Dec 11, 2009, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Anet knows what needs to be done. They've been dragging their feet because they're afraid of the QQ.

Or perhaps that they realize that removing something that a vast majority can use and enjoy is a stupid idea, especially when the only reason is to kowtow to elitist jerks?

Quote:

600/Smite and OF are not invincibility. SF is. Big difference there. Using anything except SF is the same as putting mending on your bar. The methods of tanking other classes have? Useless. There's no reason to use anything other than SF, any more than there is to use mending. All are equally useless in the face of SF.

SF is not invincibility, get that out of your damn heads! Trying to label it as such only prolongs the argument, rather than solves the issue. Its a skill that can be mistimed or misused, you wipe and you die. The thing is, its user friendly, so even non-1337 players can run the build with regularity. As to the other builds NOT being as effective (not invincibility, that's such a stupid term), if 600/Smite or an OB Flesh tank can do the same job in roughly the same time, how is it any different? Effectively it isn't, but I'm sure you'll come up with a stupid rationalization anyways.

Quote:

All I did was take your arguments to their logical end:

If invincibility is ok, then why is it not okay for all professions? Why do assassins get special treatment?

Its not invincibility, labeling it such defeats your entire argument. Its not special treatment, its equal treatment that Sins now have a build that can effectively farm, just like Monks, Eles and others have had since day one.

Quote:

If all people are entitled to win simply because they bought the game, then why shouldn't they have an insta-win button?

People are not entitled to win just because they bought the game, that would defeat the purpose of playing what you paid for. What they SHOULD be entitled to is having an equal chance of winning regardless of what character they pick to play. I've never heard of a game where the balance is so messed up that just by selecting your base profession you run the risk of locking yourself out of ever getting a party, other than the Sin in GW prior to the EoTN update. Perma allows a Sin to finally be picked ahead of all the OB Flesh tanks and 600 monks, which have been around for ages. Spread the love.

Quote:

Keep trying to dance around this. It amuses me.

Look in the mirror. You're laughing at yourself. Instead of trying to dance around the fact that Sins until Perma were never taken in groups, and because of it now they have experienced a surge in popularity, you're trying to argue semantics of what SF actually constitutes, and you're even terribly wrong about that. Keep trying, we're all having a good laugh here!

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 11, 2009, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyrFytr998

But that is the gist of most anti-SF people. These "bigger effort" elitists are maintaining that the "short cut" wannabes have personally affected them by invalidating their achievements in a virtual world. I was unaware there was such a level of butt hurtness. That was until Permasins came about.

Two players are standing next to each other in FoW armor. One did it the old fashioned way. The other did it a gimmicky way. Now on principle, you can say the old fashioned way deserves more merit for it. Ultimately though, if the old fashioned player is losing sleep over the fact that the gimmick player had FoW armor too. Well "old" boy better reevaluate his current position in life.

Seriously, all the QQer's who are pro nerf are like "Old Money" millionaires who are mad because a new money "Powerball" lotto winner was let into their exclusive country club.

This is the funny thing though...I'm poor as RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO in game. I didn't farm, I simply do whatever I feel like doing, and only something that I'll enjoy doing, regardless of the phat lewt.

I mean, I bet a lot of people don't believe it, but some people do actually like challenging games that require some kind of thought process. Now, granted, most of GW can be completed by simply drooling on the keyboard, but some areas are actually designed to try to make you think, and put a bit of effort in.

Now, I'm sure the "IF YOU DONT LIKE IT DONT USE IT LAWL" argument is going to come up, and that's fine, fair enough, whatever...but you shouldn't have to purposely gimp yourself to get a challenge. Purposely gimping yourself takes away any immersion that the game had, and makes it more of a "why the hell am I doing this?".

I mean, in a game completely about making an adequate skill bar...what fun is there in making the best subpar skillbar that you can? That's just retarded. That is the same reason that most games don't have an "I WIN" button that you can just turn on. That's why most games actually somewhat try to achieve balance. That's why the Luxon Base Defender isn't available as a henchman.

UnChosen · Dec 11, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I'm sorry, but an RPG where 100% of the population can succeed anywhere at any skill level would be absolutely TERRIBLE.

Please read my posts again. No where did I say that I want guaranteed success for everyone. What I want is for the actual success to be worth it. Some dungeon in HM are actually harder than FoW HM for pugs, why the hell do they only reward success with 2 gems. Why does UW HM only give 2 ectos + junk for 3 hrs of work with pugs?

If I do UW with a pug group, teach them all the tricks, keep retrying until they finally learn the area and finish in 4 hrs....the group be rewarded far more than the current amount, because that actually contributed far more to the community and livelihood of the game in comparison to the few secluded guilds that never see the day of light or the chronic solo farmer with carpal tunnel syndrome.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 11, 2009, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Please read my posts again. No where did I say that I want guaranteed success for everyone.

Oh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Of course, the best solution is a balanced game where I can play with 100% of people

Not what I get from that. What I get from that is "I want to be able to just fill my party and roll the place".

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 11, 2009, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Please read my posts again. No where did I say that I want guaranteed success for everyone. What I want is for the actual success to be worth it. Some dungeon in HM are actually harder than FoW HM for pugs, why the hell do they only reward success with 2 gems. Why does UW HM only give 2 ectos + junk for 3 hrs of work with pugs?

If I do UW with a pug group, teach them all the tricks, keep retrying until they finally learn the area and finish in 4 hrs....the group be rewarded far more than the current amount, because that actually contributed far more to the community and livelihood of the game in comparison to the few secluded guilds that never see the day of light or the chronic solo farmer with carpal tunnel syndrome.

Also, what I can't understand for the life of me...is WHY do you keep doing the mission? I mean, if you don't enjoy doing it, why the hell would you spend 4 hours doing it? Why does the phat lewt matter if you enjoy doing it?

It's a game, not a bank balance. If you don't enjoy doing a hard mission...don't f'ing do it. Or do it in easymode, that way you aren't missing any content at all.

moriz · Dec 11, 2009, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Or perhaps that they realize that removing something that a vast majority can use and enjoy is a stupid idea, especially when the only reason is to kowtow to elitist jerks?

they've already said that SF will be taken care of. it's only a matter of time. get in on the farming while you can.

just admit it, you don't have the ability to play without a crutch. it's the only reason why you are spinning in circles arguing for something that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

i am a casual player. my highest title track is sunspear castellan. i played this game for the sake of playing this game, not for some arbitrary accomplishment that won't mean anything in the end. in my time playing, i focused in improving myself as a player, so i can play the content playing the builds i want, and not having to resort to a godmode cheat. i also became quite good at playing this game, probably much better than you, in fact. after all, i don't have to resort to cheating. you are not a casual player, you are a bad player that's been carried by an absurdly overpowered build. it allowed you to compete with players you have no business competing with, in areas that you won't be able to survive a second in.

can you still play without SF? sounds like you can't. that by itself invalidates much of your argument: you have an ulterior motive. but hey, if the game really is as easy as you claim to be, and you really are as good as you think you are, then try winning that mAT. after all, winning the mAT (and the ATs that leads up to it) will earn you a shit-ton more money than farming with a godmode build ever will.

upier · Dec 11, 2009, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

you need to accept that casual players are not meant to play areas that are designed to be "hardcore" content. accept that, and you'll be all the happier. after all, not everyone gets to be a heart surgeon; nor does everyone get to win the mATs. it takes a certain amount of dedication to become good at something. even then, at the end of the day, you really aren't missing much. after all, does the end reward from playing these areas actually make your character statistically better? no, it doesn't. therefore, it's not like you are missing out on essential content.

you also claim that you dislike the mudslinging that comes with every online community, yet you come here and start slinging your own. you are exactly what you claim to hate. does that mean you hate yourself? if not, isn't that a little hypocritical?

"On the contrary, it is rife with politics, social stratification, snobbery and the sort of selfish, deluded, condescending, bellends that most of us try to escape. The sort that ruins things for everyone and pat themselves on the back for a job well done, only to later wax lyrically about the good ole days in proper nostalgic refrains."

that, and other useless things in your post does not contribute to your argument. it takes away from them. i suggest you refrain from posting until you can argue without resorting to such shallow and baseless attacks.

An online game also requires players.
Excluding players from the little content we have does in no way promote that.

Cheeva B · Dec 11, 2009, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

1. Funnily enough, Elite areas in NM don't accept Sins unless they're perma, so your asserion is incorrect.

2. their skill, Spellbreaker is the monks, Obsidian Flesh in the Ele's and so on and so forth. Each class has methods for maintaining some form of tanking ability, even warriors have Gladiator's Stance. Obviously there are varying levels of efficacy, but that's to be expected in any game with hundreds of skills to choose from.

3. just go roll a Sin!

4. Until you realize what hypocrisy is, and that I've not advocated any of the things you've claimed, your statements are irrelevant and supercilious.

1. So you're saying Sins only function is perma? Interesting, do you even own a set of daggers? lol

2. This comparison is ludicrous and simply your childish attempt to keep SF as Godmode. Gladiators defence has a 75% chance of being effective and cannot be held up continously. So you'd be happy with SF only being Godmode with 75% efficiency? If SF was reworked to 75% chance for spells to fail and 75% chance for all other attacks to fail? Not to mention How well it defends vs spellcasters...lol you are pathetic in your excuses, if it was reworked to this, Im sure you'd be back here butthurt screaming words like balance, mass exodus, and the accomanying tears.

Obby Flesh is constantly maintained? I'm sure glad it is effective vs completely shutting down any melee just like SF does.

Spellbreaker sure stops both styles of play also, glad those pesky warriors and REAL assassins cant do damage with spellbreaker up!

You're attempots to show balance really are pathetic lol

3. So no other profession is worth rolling? I figured Anet made them for some reason or another...

4. You should really look at your previous posts before you start spittin words like that at others. You are oozing with it

I'm sure many will quit if SF is nerfed, and good riddance to them if they do. That just means all they can play is Godmode and have no clue on how to run other classes, nor the want to join a group....or is Guild Wars no longer about having 8,6, or even 4 in a party?

Daesu · Dec 11, 2009, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

they've already said that SF will be taken care of. it's only a matter of time. get in on the farming while you can.

just admit it, you don't have the ability to play without a crutch. it's the only reason why you are spinning in circles arguing for something that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

i am a casual player. my highest title track is sunspear castellan. i played this game for the sake of playing this game, not for some arbitrary accomplishment that won't mean anything in the end. in my time playing, i focused in improving myself as a player, so i can play the content playing the builds i want, and not having to resort to a godmode cheat. i also became quite good at playing this game, probably much better than you, in fact. after all, i don't have to resort to cheating. you are not a casual player, you are a bad player that's been carried by an absurdly overpowered build. it allowed you to compete with players you have no business competing with, in areas that you won't be able to survive a second in.

can you still play without SF? sounds like you can't. that by itself invalidates much of your argument: you have an ulterior motive. but hey, if the game really is as easy as you claim to be, and you really are as good as you think you are, then try winning that mAT. after all, winning the mAT (and the ATs that leads up to it) will earn you a shit-ton more money than farming with a godmode build ever will.

What do you mean by "playing without a crutch"? If you think that SF implies that it is impossible for you die, no matter what, then you really dont know how SF works. Furthermore, SF is a feature of the game and if using a feature is a crutch then all of us are guilty of this by simply wearing armor on your characters when we can play without armor.

Cheating? You make it sound like he is running a bot or using a godmode hack. And what are you trying to prove? That you are a better player than he is because you dont run a SF build? There are many other farming builds that can be argued to be overpowered one way or another.

Ultimately, the game was not made just to prove that your e-peen is bigger than his or anyone else. The game was made for people to have fun and it sounds really stupid to call yourself a better player simply because you personally do not like his build when he wasn't even trying to compare with you in the first place, and you have to show off your e-peen to everyone here.

UnChosen · Dec 11, 2009, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Also, what I can't understand for the life of me...is WHY do you keep doing the mission? I mean, if you don't enjoy doing it, why the hell would you spend 4 hours doing it? Why does the phat lewt matter if you enjoy doing it?

It's a game, not a bank balance. If you don't enjoy doing a hard mission...don't f'ing do it. Or do it in easymode, that way you aren't missing any content at all.

Because its more enjoyable than repeating easy areas over and over, I already vanquished the entire game with 8 chars already. Phat lewt doesn't matter (nearly as much) to me, but if the majority of players vote with their feet and move, then at the end I still get dragged along. There isn't enough "play for fun" people in the game for me to pug without frustration. (In the case of DoA, the number of play for fun people is nearly ZERO)

What people need to get through is that 99% of people want phat lewt. That's the reality. Even if I want to do "easy" mode, if no one else do it, I can't do it. I want to do DoA, but its a ghost town, I can't do it. Same with EoTN dungeons. Same with every place in the game except UW. My guild is only active enough for me to do the end game area like two times a week. Sometimes I can't go on at the time my guild is active because I have to work night. etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

An online game also requires players.
Excluding players from the little content we have does in no way promote that.

Exactly.

Jk)Phoenix · Dec 11, 2009, 08:41 AM // 08:41

have to say that most of ppl (not all, most of) screaming for a nerf here are probably just envious because: they dont have a sin or are not able to use it or haven't a guild who give them a chance to do any sort of sinway or maybe they simply tried it and die however (which is lol since u call it "godmode", saw too many failers sins in fow/uw these days, and obviously sometimes i fail too but i dont whine like that)

hell if u dont want to run SF there's no problem, but u can't scream for a nerf just because u envious that others (more nerds and, only sometimes, more skilled than u) spend lot of their time on improving their abilities on playing a perma! and than get their results (high-end items in very short time) (go wastes with a perma without a training and tell me how much u last with ur freaky "godmode" if u dont know when and where to use it, it's not so simple!)

is like crying because 1 of ur friends (in real life) has a better job than u, probably works 12hrs/day, have studied more than u and now he has a big house, a cool car, ecc ecc.. and u dont have... obvious! he endeavored much more than u!